A few weeks ago I attended a talk sponsored by Slow Food Montreal at Norref Fisheries with the General Director of Norref (the largest distributor of seafood in Quebec) and Greenpeace representative Katherine Vezina. This is part 1 of the evening and focuses on making the shift to selling sustainable seafood based on economic production of seafood in Quebec, imports, exports, and the insides and outs of selling what the consumer demands. To download part 1, click here.
Below is a transcription of the radio piece:
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Founded in 1987, Norref is the largest fish and seafood distributor in Quebec with annual sales in 2010 reaching $113 million. From a strategically located 42,000 square-foot warehouse in Montreal, Norref distributes a full range of fresh and frozen fish products as well as ready-to-eat fish and seafood meals. It sells to all the IGA’s in Quebec, some Provigo and Loblaws grocery stores, as well as restaurants, hotels, caterers and poissoneries – fishmongers.
On March 15th, 2011 Slow Food Montreal organized a 5 a 7 talk entitled “La Peche Durable” or “sustainable Fish” at Les Pecheries Norref. We’ll join Slow Food Montreal representative Katherine Lune-Rollet at that event in the offices adjacent to the warehouse building as she introduces the General Director of Norref, M. Jean Roch Thiffault as he presents a history of the fish economy in Quebec and the company’s current stance on sustainable seafood.
“So we said to ourselves, we’ll work with Norref. Norref has worked with us for a long time. They’re the largest distributor of fish in Quebec so we have the opportunity to have here the new General Director…”
Without jumping directly into the issues of sustainability, M. Thiffault proceeds to explain the history of fish exportation and importation in Quebec, and why Quebecers eat – or don’t eat – certain kinds of fish and seafood.
“Historically in Quebec, we export our products. We export primary materials, whether that’s fish or mining. We export everything, so fish was no different. So the tendencies regarding fish, they’re more on the coasts, the tendency to eat fish didn’t take hold in the interior of the state.”
Taking Quebec crab as an example, Mme. Lune-Rollet poses the question of whether Quebecers aren’t ready to pay for luxury items. Do we export our good crab to the Japanese market because demand is higher and then we eat less expensive items, she asks? Mr. Thiffault responds:
“There’s no demand in Quebec for crab because people aren’t used to it. So they’re not ready to pay the price it’s worth. Then over time the Japanese took over the factories. I saw them. Then the 20% of the least high quality crab ends up on the Quebec market. It’s very political. Don’t forget, in Quebec, I don’t know what region you’re from but when you go to Montreal you’re a-political. When you go to Quebec City you’re a-political, but when you go to other regions, you’re political. Because it takes the family of your brother-in-law, the family of your wife, and the family, your own family that help….
…So what that’s done is created markets in Quebec, importation markets of different products to discover.”
Moving into eco-responsibility, M. Thiffault starts to describe fish purchasing practices in the province as the result of an elitist market.
“At one time no one was talking about eco-responsibility. There were movements that started and right away the public was ready to get on board with those movements. So it’s you that have the power. People do what they want, not what others do….
How many people came here by bus? How many by car?”
Slightly less than half of the people in the room raise their hands as having come by bus, slightly more than half reply that they came by car. A lone man responds that he came by bike. The day of the talk was a very slushy winter day in Montreal.
“When gas costs $3.50 a litre it’ll be the opposite. It’s always the same thing. There’s an elite that eats seafood.
The consumption of fish in Quebec has increased 40% in the last 5 years. M. Thiffault proceeds to explain this increase as being based on the fact that fish is less expensive than beef and pork, but tone might argue that that depends on the quality of meat and seafood that you buy. He also explains that 30 years ago if someone told you that anti-smoking would be a social cause where you could shake your finger at a smoker even though he was using a government-approved item you wouldn’t have believed him. In M. Thiffault’s opinion the government is responsible for ensuring that consumers buy eco-friendly fish, comparing it to legislation regarding smoking in public spaces. Even though it is the individual’s decision to smoke, the government stepped in.
Mme. Rollet raises the next question: “In this case does the government need to legislate it like they’ve already done for cod? There are no more cod we stop fishing. We eat something else. Do they need to do that for other species?
“Lets be careful. There are those who condemn, and those who find solutions.
I was just in Costa Rica. We went to Costa Rica because we said we needed to save the tortoises. You need to pay attention to language. It’s a long-line fishing method. Lone-line is behind the boat. Depending on where you put the buoy, where you put the hollow of the line, how high it is in the water, you end up with different species. Fishermen can be selective if they want, because they don’t fish for everything at the same time. There are certain groups that condemn this kind of fishery. You can put the line at a certain height where you catch sharks but you don’t have to.
So six fishing boats were tested over the course of a year with observers. They accidentally caught only one tortoise.”
He continues to explain that changes need to be made over the long-term, not the short-term, because if suddenly entire fisheries, even unsustainable fisheries, are shut down, many people all over the world will lose their jobs and be unable to feed their families. “We need to be careful,” he says. “We really need to think. In Punta Renas, Costa Rica, it’s the WWF, the World Wildlife Federation, that started looking into this. They said, “We’ll try to find a solution. But before anything happens it’ll be 5 years because we need to get observers on-board fishing vessels, we need to teach fishermen, we need to find companies that will say ‘yes it’s fine, we’ll take your product first.’”
But now we’ve moved away from governmental responsibility, and M. Thiffault is explaining that it’s the responsibility of organizations such as the WWF to ensure to responsible fishing practices, in response to an interesting question posed by Mme. Rollet. She asks if it should be up to individual countries’ or rather international legislature to determine what should be fished and how.
“In Canada we have legislation presently on quotas of fish, on big fish. Lobster! Lobster isn’t fished just like that. There are nurseries, farms…everyone! We’re not approved by any association yet. However, we’re known as a country with one of the best regulations. We’re in the process of going to the next step with fishing methods and that, but fish existed in Canada before we found it. In other countries it’s part of their history. So there are old habits that you need to change and adapt, but the world goes fast, everything goes fast, and sometimes there are people who don’t go quite as fast. But if everyone becomes more aware…”
He makes the point that Canada is doing pretty well compared to other countries, but is it doing well enough? Atlantic salmon is the most obvious example. “Red-listed” by Seachoice and indicated as a species “to avoid” by Oceanwise, two sustainable seafood watchdogs in the country, salmon farms that introduce large amounts of antibiotics into water systems, pollute ecosystems, and potentially create lasting effects on wild fish populations, Canadian salmon farms are some of the worst culprits in the world of unsustainable fish, even if other countries are doing just as poorly with regulating the fishing and farming of other species.
Instead of speaking of the Canadian salmon situation, M. Thiffault instead goes on to describe the Chilean fishing systems and how they have been improved in the last decade. He explains that they’re not eco-responsible yet, but are on their way. He then jumps into a comparison to hybrid and electric cars. “Electric care have been around since 1960, but not everyone has one, despite their availability.” Hybrids, like the slow movement toward sustainable farming practices in Chile, are a long process. The comparison is not well-received by those in attendance who hope that more responsible practices will be introduced immediately, or at least that less responsible practices will be eliminated before fish stocks collapse or pollution destroys water eco-systems completely. M. Thiffault’s subsequent comparison of a murderer who gets a second chance being the same as an unsustainable fishery needing help from organizations to improve and then getting its own “second chance” creates another silence in the room.
But sustainable fisheries are not a pipe dream. They do already exist in some areas. There are working models and transitioning fisheries need not start from scratch. Oceanwise and Seachoice are two examples of organizations that certify fisheries as sustainable. It does take time to research a fishery and accredit it as sustainable, and it takes ongoing supervision to ensure it remains that way, but from a consumer standpoint, there is usually a fish or seafood choice available to you that is accredited as sustainable. Many poissoneries and grocery stores, however, don’t indicate this on the packaging. They may not know themselves where a fish came from, how it was fished, or if it’s sustainable. They may not even know what kind of fish it is, since species are often mis-labled.
Norref’s is very much in favour accreditation from Oceanwise and Seachoice. M. Thiffault’s explaination that Norref is “ceritified Oceanwise” is somewhat misleading, however. They cooperate with Oceanwise, but that doesn’t mean all the fish they receive and distribute is sustainable, or even labled as sustainable – or not – by one of these organizations.
On a tour of the Norref warehouse after the talk, we were lead through rooms of enormous swordfish, mahi-magi, tuna, and Atlantic salmon. But Norref does try to associate itself with these organizations and present itself as an eco-conscious company to its clients. M. Thiffault explains that everyone in the warehouse knows where the fish comes from. Fishing zones are indicated on boxes and packaging. For their wholesale operations they indicate Oceanwise certification. So if a restaurant calls and says they only want Oceanwise-certified products, Norref can say “of course. This is what you can buy.”
As the interaction between M. Thiffault and the talk attendees increases the question of consumer responsibility is re-raised. One attendee questioned the idea of “fashionable fish” and how consumers only buy certain kinds of fish, and only certain cuts, mainly fillets of salmon, tuna, and mahi-mahi because that’s what’s on the market. That’s what they see at the grocery store and fish shops. It’s also what’s given as fish options in recipes, so it’s what consumers look for. How many recipes do you see in your favourite North American cookbooks for mackerel? The commenter mentions that he himself eats sardines, a less popular fish choice, three times a week. M. Thiffault assumes he means canned sardines, but the speaker assures him he means fresh. M. Thiffault seems , but sustainable seafood writers and speakers have been promoting small, quickly-reproducing fish such as sardines as relatively sustainable alternatives to more popular fish such as salmon and tuna whose stocks are often low, among other concerns.
M. Thiffault continues that industry responds to consumer demand. Restaurants didn’t start introducing different kinds of fish on their menu, but ethnic groups in the city created a demand for different kinds of species, and used well-known species including previously unwanted, “lower end” species such as shrimp in different ways. In Quebec, specifically in coastal areas such as the Iles de la Madeleine even 60 years ago, shrimp and lobster were basic foodstuffs, like paté chinois, a traditional simple, economical Quebecois dish. They weren’t the makings of fancy or gourmet dinners in the way they’re thought of now.
Mme. Lune-Rollet shifts the conversation back to consumer vs. industry responsibility with a comment about chicken. She argues that manufacturers of chicken products can say, “Well if no consumers will buy it we won’t do it, but the consumers can say if no one produces it we won’t buy it.”
M. Thiffault defends industry, saying that it’s doing well. It’s becoming conscientious. It’s making an effort….
“When 40% of the fish sold in Quebec is salmon, I won’t stop selling it. I won’t hurt my business. Because they’re starting to change. We’re going step by step. We’re going to help these companies first to adapt, to raise fish better, to encourage those who will adapt first. That’s our goal.
When I go to the supermarket, the supermarket is a representation of the consumer. It adapts to what the consumer wants. If the consumer didn’t want fish, there wouldn’t be a fish section.”
M. Thiffault compares fish purchasing to buying non-organic vegetables. “All the fruits and vegetables there, they come from everywhere. Even from producers in Quebec that put things in them.”
M. Thiffault insists that it’s people who have changed this tendency in some ways, supporting organics by educating themselves and having a desire to affect change. “Because tomorrow morning we won’t change everything.”
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